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MarvelVision News Update: The Punisher, Bob Iger And More

Alex Zalben061 mins
MARVEL STUDIOS NEWS JON BERNTHAL PUNISHER KAHHORI WHAT IF BOB IGER ANGELA BASSETT OSCARS

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We’re kicking off semi-regular Marvel news updates with a breakdown of the big stories that have broken over the past week. That includes the return of Jon Bernthal as Punisher for Daredevil: Born Again, Bob Iger’s statements on pulling back on Marvel movie sequels, the debut of Kahhori in What If? Season 2, and much more.

Episode Rundown:

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Episode Transcript

Alexander Zalben
Welcome to MarvelVision, a podcast about Marvel, the MCU and right now a bunch of news. I’m Alex.

Justin Tyler
I’m Justin. Isn’t Marvel news really just news to us?

Alexander Zalben
I think? I every morning I open up the old Gray Lady, aka…

Justin Tyler
Aunt May?

Alexander Zalben
Oh God, I gotta think it’s an old lady’s in Marvel. But thank you, Justin. I appreciate it. Anyway, we’re gonna be talking about a bunch of news topics here in the interim. Between when Marvel TV shows and movies come out lots of stuff always popping. We can chat about it. We’re gonna try to do more of these hopefully going forward if you like them.

Justin Tyler
We want to be your primary news source. We’ll cover mostly Marvel and a little bit of weather at the end.

Alexander Zalben
Exactly. And then I’m going to just throw it like one sharp hot political take somewhere in here but you’ll see if you pick up on it.

Justin Tyler
you see if you can spot it. Yeah, it’s gonna be hard to pick up.

Alexander Zalben
Let’s start with one of the big things that broke this week. This hasn’t been officially confirmed by Marvel, but as usual, it’s probably officially confirmed anyway. John Bernthal thaw is returning as The Punisher in Daredevil” Born A gain. Reportedly, I believe he’s gonna be in for as much as six episodes of the show, which is a big deal. There’s a lot of other stuff to talk about here in the show that we’ll get into a moment but I wanted to stop here. What do you think about this? What do you think about Jon Bernthal coming back?

Justin Tyler
I mean, first off love Jon Bernthal. Great actor I– We Own The City did you watch that on HBO was so good

Alexander Zalben
I heard that was really good.

Justin Tyler
And to see him back in the Punisher. He’s playing this sort of similarly orbiting characters over and over again, but like, I like him, I think he’s a great Punisher. It does. Two things come to mind. First off, of course, they had 18 episodes. They gotta cram in everything they got time to spare. No wonder there’s gonna be a Punisher nine part arc, but secondarily Disney+, not really a gun place. Punisher famously gun focused.

Alexander Zalben
I do wonder and this would be pretty exciting. If we’re really firmly putting the Punisher in the MCU every time he kills somebody if he says so that just happened. That’d be pretty good, right?

Justin Tyler
Like oh, put it on full like Disney Channel, kids show style. Yeah. Booyooyoung

Alexander Zalben
Punisher just like Kingpins right behind me right now, isn’t he?

Justin Tyler
Wowee wow wow.

Alexander Zalben
There’s a couple of things to address with that one when they added all of the Netflix shows on Disney Plus, they also added a whole PIN system parental discretion gave the gave it a Mature rating. Internationally. It also doesn’t matter. They have Star on there versus Hulu. And there’s all sorts of content that you wouldn’t necessarily describe as Disney content. So if they’re going for the international play, which frankly we’re gonna probably talk about later in this podcast when it comes to movies is the play that Disney is going for anyway. It matters more domestically than it does internationally. And–

Justin Tyler
Yeah.

Alexander Zalben
–while I don’t think it’s going to be as wildly violent, or I don’t know, there are a couple of I gotta back off what what I’m saying. There were a couple of very intense moments of violence in the Netflix shows, but they’re not the most violent shows seen in the world. They’re just violent for Marvel shows, right?

Justin Tyler
Yeah, I think so. But I still do think the Netflix shows are further across the line than what Disney would normally put on Disney Plus. So I think while I agree with you there is still online that they’re going to need to I imagine pull back a little bit from.

Alexander Zalben
But this gets into and I think we’re getting far afield here, but we talk about this all the time on Comic Book Club our live show and The Stack our review podcast, where the Punisher is sometimes an odd fit in the Marvel universe like it his own books he’s getting to do exactly what you’re saying he’s getting to be as violent as he deeds he’s getting to push forward, but then you pair it with superheroes or like now Punisher don’t kill and he’s like, I’m gonna kill and they’re like, don’t kill and then maybe he kills one guy or is like gets pulled back from killing The Vulture because you need The Vulture in other stories or whatever. So I do wonder if we’re going to have that. Even if Jon Bernthal as an actor is gonna give 1,000% If we’re gonna get 50% of that Punisher in the show to your point.

Justin Tyler
Well, I also think the debate about the Punisher always goes to he’s the guy that kills and I feel like the character was created to sort of occupy that middle ground of vigilante that goes too far so that he is technically fighting villains, but he’s trying to hurt them, kill them, whatever. And so heroes have to pull back on another hero. Interesting like take in a gray area for comic books when before there was that gray area, but then he fast forward that to now there are a ton of ways to do this without it being like him just sniping people from a distance. Like we don’t need to do that. It could just be like, he gets too violent. He goes too far his tactics are wrong. And they could have because Daredevil– The problem is Daredevil is pushing that too. So those two characters are occupying sort of a similar vigilante thing like they’re on the edge they could go over the edge any moment. So like, how do you differentiate the Punisher that’s why it lands on like, well, he straight up kills people.

Alexander Zalben
Right and that’s where you get that great. One of the best things on the Daredevil show in season two, the first half that they write out of the comics for Punisher has Daredevil chained to the chimney it gives him the whole we’re one bad day different from each other speech. That’s great. That gets to the heart of it. I will say I am very tired of the whole should vigilantes kill, we have run it out. I’m cautiously hopeful they’re gonna hit it in a different way. I’m cautiously hopeful they’re gonna use the Punisher a different way. Like I mentioned with 1,000% of like you mentioned with John Bernthal . It’s kind of a no brainer to bring it back. Right. Like he is your hot actor right now. He does a phenomenal–

Justin Tyler
In more ways than one, Alex.

Alexander Zalben
Hubba, hubba. Have you seen American Gigolo, awooga awooga. He also loves the Punisher like we know this without calling any names but we have a friend who works with him or worked with him on the Punisher. And he like is obsessed with comics and thinks about it and wants to get it right for the fans and thinks about what the right thing is. So if you’re gonna bring somebody back and you’re gonna put the Punisher there, it makes total sense to have John Bernthal in there. On the other hand–

Justin Tyler
Yeah, when you have 18 episodes it’s a ton of real estate. Especially what we’re going to talk about later may be about the Marvel maybe pulling back a little bit. The fact that this show snuck in an 18 episode order, is wild. I t’s gonna feel like so much bigger.

Alexander Zalben
I’m still suspicious of that. To be honest, this is based on no information whatsoever. But my guess here is they’re doing essentially what Netflix does with animation, which is, they’re like great news. We picked you up for 18 episodes for this season, so that we can pay you with one contract. Oh, by the way, we’re gonna release this in three parts of six episodes each over the course of two years. And essentially sell them as three seasons. So I–

Justin Tyler
Sort of your Gabby’s dollhouse model.

Alexander Zalben
Exactly. That’s how they talked about it in the room, I’m sure.

Justin Tyler
Yeah, definitely. That’s how I see it.

Alexander Zalben
They’re not gonna do 18 weeks of Daredevil. That doesn’t make any sense. They’re gonna break it up in different parts. I’m sure.

Justin Tyler
You could do it Andor style you do nine and nine Andor 12 and is working on this back 12. And that’s perfectly exciting and fun.

Alexander Zalben
Exactly. On the other hand, and I guess it’s too bad that our primary defender of these two characters Pete is not on this episode of the podcast, but also dropped to this Hollywood Reporter article where they might have explained the John Bernthal was coming back the casually mentioned that most likely Deborah Ann Woll and Elden Henson will not be back as Karen and Foggy respectively. They didn’t say that definitively, but they believe they are not going to be back. What do you think about this?

Justin Tyler
Well, it makes a lot of sense. If we are sticking with this Daredevil-She Hulk love thing like having Karen Page in there feels weird. And Foggy’s future is looking foggy. I would say

Alexander Zalben
I’m gonna be straight up rude. They seem like very nice people. They were the vestigial limb of that show. They were. Constantly they’d be like, Daredevil would be in these really intense situations that they’d cut over to them but they– Karen would be like, I’m really trying to make it as a newspaper person, but I’m not gonna write any articles or I’m gonna work out one article they’re like, please turn in some articles and she’s like, Nope, I’m working on this one article and that’s it. And then Elden would come in– Foggy would come in and be like make a joke about avocados and he always seemed very– Pete’s gonna listen to this and he’s gonna scream at me — but he always seemed so uncomfortable in that role, like it just not fit for him. I don’t mind Foggy as a character as a foil to Daredevil, but there was nothing there.

Justin Tyler
Well, I think they, they it sort of became like a workplace comedy energy and the show just wasn’t interested in that. And like modern TV doesn’t really mix workplace comedy with drama in the way that the superhero show is gonna want to. So it that makes total sense, like and if we follow the Karen Page arc from the comics, that’s horrifying, and I feel like either they have to do that or not.

Alexander Zalben
Yeah, the only one qualm that I have even though Daredevil completely the show completely misused them. When they brought Karen over to The Punisher which mind you I always forget about this. The first season of The Punisher was great, like legitimately a great show. Second season, not so much. But the chemistry between Deborah Ann Woll and John Bernthal… A million times better than the chemistry retreat Deborah Ann Woll and Charlie Cox so not getting to see that again is a little bit of a bummer but it’s okay we have the other episodes in our past and I think we’re gonna be all good. There is another recast though that set off a lot of rumors that I think are entirely unnecessary. So Sandrine Holt, who I believe she was on Better Call Saul, if I remember correctly has been cast as Vanessa Fisk in Daredevil: Born Again, Ayelet Zurer played her on the Netflix show. You’re gonna

Justin Tyler
I have Sandrine on House of Cards, Mr. Robot and Homeland.

Alexander Zalben
Okay, there we go. Well, she’s also going to be working with this actually, it was also buried at a THR article that was about Michael Cuesta, who’s previously directed on Dexter and Homeland is going to be directing episodes of the show. This set off a lot of speculation about — opp, this is a different universe they got a different Vanessa Fisk it’s all that connected to the previous show. That’s ridiculous.

Justin Tyler
That’s ridiculous. But you’re right. She’s also on Better Call Saul playing Cheryl Hamlin, which I thought that was great. But yes, I think that is crazy. That’s a recasting does that mean we shifted the show to another universe?

Alexander Zalben
Well, that’s if you look back at it. Iron Man and Iron Man 2 are two entirely different universes because there’s different Rhodeys.

Justin Tyler
Yeah, that’s 100%. Right. Yeah. Just think of how we’d be living if we were in the Iron Man or a rich universe. Yes.

Alexander Zalben
So I think that’s kind of a ridiculous rumor. Yes, they’re gonna recast people. I’m still of the opinion. And I’ve said this several times here on the podcast that it’s going to be like a soft reboot where they’re not going to conflict necessarily anything that happened before, but they’re also not going to reference it like nobody’s going to be like Hey, weren’t you avocados at law and Matt is gonna be like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. That’s crazy.

Justin Tyler
I agree. They won’t do that specific thing, but it’s also strange because it does feel like with the Punisher being in there, they’re gonna hit a lot of the same beats, at least like from a character point of view. So it’s like, what are you going to be doing again? And if you’re doing things, similar things, it’s going to be hard to not reference what happened before.

Alexander Zalben
Right or reshoot. I mean, it’s a classic going back to the origin thing, so they’re not gonna use footage from the Netflix shows. I don’t think but they’re gonna reshoot it in a different way or work in a different way. So yeah, I don’t know. On the other hand, there are a lot of stories about Daredevil. And they’re all different. And they all reference the same events, but hit it a different way. So, we’ll see.

Justin Tyler
And what do you think about the Echo show? How does that fit in here? Because that’s been pushed back, right?

Alexander Zalben
I mean, that gets into the next topic, we’re going to talk about a little bit but maybe it works in some way and maybe they’re gonna have to reshoot things because apparently that’s been pushed back at the very least until 2024. So. It was clearly supposed to come first. It was supposed to come pretty soon after Hawkeye but whether you believe that there are a lot of problems in actually getting the show together, or if they’re just shifted around the order, whatever it is, this is sort of classic, classic Marvel where they’re like, oop, we move this thing around. Now we’re gonna have to change things and tweak things and change the end credit scenes and figure it out. The last thing I wanted to say before we move on to our next topic, though, is that the show is starting to shoot in New York. This coming week for a very long time. So we’ll probably go to set right? We’ll hang out?

Justin Tyler
Yeah. 100% will be there. We’re New Yorkers so we’re walking through movies all the time.

Alexander Zalben
Yeah, there’ll be look forward to our big scene where we say, Hey, I’m walking here as we walk through the show.

Justin Tyler
Got to have that to New York, New York shoot.

Alexander Zalben
As you referenced. This was another big topic that came out this week. I know we were all very excited for the Morgan Stanley Technology, Media and Telecom Conference, one of the biggest entertainment events of the year.

Justin Tyler
I was– I camped out outside, it was sick dude. Yeah, it was awesome.

Alexander Zalben
I really want to do that sometimes dressed in costume as my favorite Morgan Stanley exec.

Justin Tyler
Yeah. Which is just work clothes for a lot of people. Yeah, I crowd surfed in for a lot of it. Don’t take the brown acid, but I did anyway.

Alexander Zalben
So Bob Iger who is now again and temporarily, again, in charge of Disney gave some statements about a lot of different things at this conference. But the big one for us is he talked about Marvel movies and I’m just going to read off his quotes, which were shared by CNBC: “Sequels typically worked well for us. Do you need a third and fourth, for instance? Or is it time to turn to other characters? There’s nothing in any way inherently off in terms of the Marvel brand. I think we just have to look at what characters and stories we’re mining. And you look at the trajectory of Marvel over the next five years, you’ll see a lot of newness. We’re going to turn back to the Avengers franchise but with a whole different set of Avengers.” So how does this strike you? There’s a lot of stuff to take away here from this, but what are your big takeaways, Justin?

Justin Tyler
I mean, I feel like I get why he’s saying. There’s nothing wrong. Nothing wrong here. Nothing wrong here. That’s a classic thing to say. And I don’t think there’s inherently like a bunch of detrimental problems that are going to really ruin everything. I just think they need to take some more time to make the stuff that’s important to them and by transitive property us desperately important to us. And that’s when I feel like statements like oh, we just need to look at the stories we’re mining. It’s like now it’s not about the stories or the characters. It’s about your choices when you make them.

Alexander Zalben
Yeah, that’s… I don’t know I don’t want to like pick it apart piece by piece but it’s a weird statement coming from a guy who immediately, his first call after he took over at CEO again, is like Hey, real quick. We’re gonna lay off 7000 people but good news. We’re doing Frozen 3 and Toy Story 5. And then here, he’s like, I don’t know if we need a Thor 3 at a Thor 4 Captain America 3 or a Captain America 4 all of these different things. They seem like contradictory statements on the surface. I do understand the essence of what he’s talking about. But I think what he’s actually bouncing around is the recent slate of Marvel movies have not performed in the way that they want them to. So like you’re saying it’s not about changing up the characters. It is about making sure the stories are good, and you’re telling them for a reason versus just greenlighting sequels nonstop, right?

Justin Tyler
Well, I also think they they also don’t have access to a lot of their older characters anymore from a– from the story point of view from a contractual point of view. I think, so. Like I think a lot of– Buried in this statement is like hey, we’re doing more stuff, but it’s going to be a lot of stuff that you haven’t really seen before. Like, this is probably the last Guardians that was probably the last Ant-Man especially given how I think we’re gonna move into like, like the Fantastic Four, get edging toward X-Men like all this stuff is where it’s going. And there’s a lot of excitement to be had there. But he can’t say that yet. I don’t think.

Alexander Zalben
The– I also have two very conflicting feelings about this. One is… We’ve been raised on comic books. So of course I want to see these characters forever. You know, I want to see a Shang-Chi two, three, four, five you know, see his continuing adventures until Simu Liu is like, I physically can’t do this anymore. Please leave me alone. But on the other hand, every Marvel movie is a sequel to the previous Marvel movie, you know

Justin Tyler
That’s exactly right. Yeah.

Alexander Zalben
So they’re gonna keep going regardless, even if you don’t get Shang-Chi 56, Shang-Chi is still going to be in the movies some way even though Captain America is technically old or on the moon or dead or whatever’s going on with them. You can bring back Chris Evans at any point for anything and he could pop up in a movie and it would be like whoa, what’s going on here? Because it’s fine. So they have ways of working this stuff without selling it specifically on that title character while still telling the story they want to tell.

Justin Tyler
Well, it’s interesting to me like just one more thing on this like, from a story point of view, like they’re bringing back the Avengers is it going to be like in the comics where it’s like, here’s your card, you’re an Avenger now. Or is it going to be another like, Oops, we’re all fighting the same fight. Why don’t we work together because there’s a problem coming? Because it’s I think it’s hard to pull the same rabbit out of the hat that they did in the first couple of Phases, bringing together the Avengers. So what’s the move here?

Alexander Zalben
I think it’s probably going to be the latter, more Avengers is a capsule term for this is the movie where we bring everybody together and they’re all working together. Not necessarily as a formal team per se, though there might be teams. I mean, you could see like Sam Wilson, as the new Captain America bringing together a team. We’re getting the Thunderbolts so they’re gonna be a team so there’s–

Justin Tyler
They will have to be a team. But I just like if it’s fighting Kang then I guess it could be like, Hey, we’re all trapped in this pocket universe or how do it so we’re Avengers? Yeah, but it’s just like, you can’t go it’s part of what we all sort of grew into over the course of MCU is Tony Stark building the infrastructure of the Avengers. And I think that was a thing that we liked in watching the progression of the Avengers movies. And I don’t think they could do that again. So I’m curious how that–

Alexander Zalben
Well, but here’s the other thing is… We basically got one Avengers movie, right? Like the first Avengers movie is all about them putting together the team leading into that iconic spin around shot at the end. The second movie Age of Ultron is the one where they’re actually like, we’re the Avengers. We have a headquarters. We work together. We’ve done all of these missions that you haven’t seen that happened off screen, and we’re all gonna fight together and that’s great. And then in between that you have after that you have Civil War where they break apart and they’re no longer Avengers, and then Avengers Infinity War and Endgame are exactly what we’re saying. It’s these disparate elements all coming together to fight this threat in both of those movies. But they’re never really like, we’re a team in exactly the same way.

Justin Tyler
Well, but I think that what you just described, you need that, hey, let’s be a team. Let’s come together. Let’s be a team. We’re a team. Now we’re breaking apart because we had a disagreement, like that dramatic action, I think led to some of the best moments in the whole franchise. So like if it’s going to be like accidental bumped into meet cute Avengers. We need some infrastructure there to carry us through like the next five movies.

Alexander Zalben
Yeah, you’re definitely right about that. Having a series of scenes where it’s all strangers getting themselves caught up to speed up what a multiverse is, is going to be potentially the most boring thing of all time.

Justin Tyler
Honestly, I’m ready for a Doctor Strange snap, like okay, you all know what the multiverse is when I just snap my fingers like, snap every couple of movies. Let’s get through the exposition.

Alexander Zalben
It’s definitely my big takeaway from the first couple of movies. Here’s another one. This is some exciting news. I thought. Marvel Studios is going to introduce original characters, characters not based on the comic books, aside from like S.H.I.E.L.D. characters, but actual superheroes and the first one they announced it apparently this is not going to be last is for What If? Season Two. It is a character called Kahhori who is the idea is that I’m definitely going to mispronounce several things in here, so I apologize. But this episode in Season two is going to ask what happens if the Tesseract fell to earth and landed in the sovereign Haudenosaunee Confederacy before the colonization of America. This is from an article on Marvel by the way, so it’s the Tesseract takes on new life and a new mythology transforming a lake into a gateway to the stars leading Kahhori, a young Mohawk woman on a quest to discover her power. And one of the other neat things about this is they worked very heavily with the Mohawk Nation to make sure to craft this character, to craft this arc, to craft the world that she lives in. And I believe the episode is also going to be broadcast in Mohawk with subtitles, presumably. I think this is great. I’m very excited about this news

Justin Tyler
Agreed. This is awesome. I think it’s a great doing What If, new What If stories is a great way to do it with new characters, and lets us start to maybe take these characters and put them back into the comics, to bring them to the comics that is. And this particular story is really interesting to me. It feels a little bit like the the premise of Prey brought into a Marvel take which I think is a very cool

Alexander Zalben
Well that said I think they were developing… They’ve been working on What If? Season Two for a while. So yeah, I agree with you. I think we’re gonna see a lot of characters we know like it’s gonna be a classic Poochie situation without using that derogatorily where like she goes through the multiverse and sees a bunch of characters that were familiar with, bumps into Captain Carter, etc. But it’s neat. It’s exciting. I will say by last note on this as I originally saw the news, just being like new episode of What If is going to be what if the Tesseract fell to earth and landed in the sovereign nation Haudenosaunee Confederacy before the colonization of America? And I was like, wow, that’s a long title. But so it’s real though.

Justin Tyler
Yeah, it’s real, guys. It’s real. That’s what we button up every episode with. Guys: it’s real.

Alexander Zalben
Yes. A couple of quick other things to mention here this weekend as we’re taping the Oscars are coming up. Marvel is up for five Oscars all for Black Panther Wakanda Forever for Best Visual Effects, Best Costume Design, Best Original Song, Best Hair and Makeup and Best Supporting Actress as our Oscar prognosticator, Justin, what is your official take here that you’re willing to stake your reputation on? Take it away.

Justin Tyler
I think you got costume design is a big hit. They’ll get that. Visual effects. I feel like Avatar is gonna go for that one. Original song potentially? I think RRR Naatu, Naatu many. People are really rising for that. Hair and makeup. I think that could be a Marvel could take that. The big one though Best Supporting Actress. I mean. Her performances. Unbelievable. It’s a tough category and in the other award ceremonies that we’ve seen lately like the SAG Awards, the DGA awards, all the other sort of Guild Award shows. I don’t believe– it’s been a mixed bag about who’s won that so. It could be because it Jamie Lee Curtis is up here right and a couple other people so like — and Jamie Lee Curtis has won the DGA. I think she won the– so it’s like– it’s a it’s a mixed bag. But her performance is unbelievable and I think she could easily take it.

Alexander Zalben
I agree and my very callous calculated way of looking at this beyond the fact that she gave have a phenomenal performance is I think people might see it as a way of awarding or honoring Chadwick Boseman, at the same time, so… I don’t know just sort of to get into the head of the Oscar voter potentially. But it would be great like you said, because she deserves it because she tears up the screen every scene that she’s in.

Justin Tyler
So intense.

Alexander Zalben
–but it would also be the first acting win for Marvel which would be a big deal for them. So I guess we’ll see what happens. We mentioned earlier the Quantumania box office. We’re still in the middle of the weekend as we’re taping this we don’t know exactly how it’s going to do this weekend, but woof! Is I guess my take?

Justin Tyler
Yeah, not great. Not great for multiple reasons because it may not beat Ant-Man 2 for box office.

Alexander Zalben
Yeah, depending on how you look at it. I broke out a couple of figures and I was looking like we’re talking about at the international box office. And global box office currently as of today is I believe $423 million. You’re looking for to break a billion on every single one of these superhero movies. It’s been tough since the pandemic and hasn’t necessarily happened as consistently. But you got to go back to like Eternals did 401 million total, Shang-hi did 432, Black Widow did 379. And those were like beginning pandemic movies. People were much more scared to go out into movie theaters. And then before that you got to go all the way back to Phase 1 to find something comparable when Cap 1 made 370 million global and Thor made 449 million global. So… This is not good. And I think to tie back into the earlier thing ties exactly to why Bob Iger was saying the things that he was saying.

Justin Tyler
Yeah, I mean, especially like you can say like it’s post pandemic all that but like Top Gun just blew, and Avatar just blew these numbers out of the water and we’re back to pre-pandemic levels. So it’s like, it is a big problem, especially when I’m sure they had their eyes on a billion global when they were making this movie and coming out with it. They painted as the next big move in Phase Five, the first movie in Phase Five. It’s got a bunch of implications for the movie. It’s a threequel for Ant-Man a franchise it was gaining strength over the course of its run. So it is bad. It is bad.

Alexander Zalben
Yeah, I don’t think we’re gonna see an Ant-Man 4 I gotta be honest with you.

Justin Tyler
Agree. I don’t think we will. But I think this is– Going back to Bob Iger’s statement. This is making Marvel look at their process at the same time you have DC looking at they’re changing up their whole thing. So it’s actually probably a good moment for them to restructure, think back, trim some stuff, put more time into writing the stories before you’re already making the dude with holes.

Alexander Zalben
Marvel made its best stuff when it was thinking like the underdog. Now it’s thinking like the winner and if we can get it back to a place where it is the underdog, they gotta fight a little harder and be a little scrappier. I just think they’re gonna be better for it to your point. Last thing I wanted to end with I am always very iffy about theories, but I thought there was a fun theory that I saw banging around the internet that I did like quite a bit. So if you remember in Ant-Man The Wasp: Quantumania, there’s a scene where Ant-Man after he’s been imprisoned, Kang comes up to him and doesn’t remember who Ant-Man as he’s like, didn’t Did I kill you?, Ant-Man’s very confused. And then he says, Are you the one with a hammer? And he’s like, No, that’s Thor. What are you talking about? So what people were pointing out is it’s pretty weird that Kang who is an observant guy who’s a conquerer who knows a lot of stuff, would be like, Are you the long blond haired fellow who’s very buff with the hammer? That doesn’t make any sense. But what might make sense is if it was Captain America from the end of Endgame, when Captain America is wearing essentially an Ant-Man suit, and holding Thor’s hammer, goes into the Quantum Realm to return the Infinity Stones. That potentially is the point when Kang found him. So I don’t know. You would have to split off the multiverse there because obviously Captain America was successful, he returned the Infinity Stones he got together with Peggy. But again, I thought that was a fun theory. I don’t know if they were thinking about that when they made the movie, but I liked it as a retcon explanation.

Justin Tyler
I think that’s really great. I would argue I would guess they were not thinking about that at all. I think they were making like a joke that seemed cool. For him to make. Didn’t I kill you? Did I kill you? Like it’s a nice fun, badass thing to say. But I also think to take it more seriously. You could see it as a real launching point into just like, the like there’s a multiverse where Ant-Man has the Thor’s hammer or where Iron Man who also looks a little bit like Ant-Man has Thor’s hammer or where, for instance, referencing the comics, Tony Stark is in the Ant-Man armor, and he somehow gets the hammer. So the multiverse anything can happen as we’re all going to learn over and over again for the next decade.

Alexander Zalben
Cool. Well, listen, that is it for our news update for this week. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you’d like to support this podcast and all the podcasts we do patreon.com/comicbookclub. Also we do a live show every Tuesday night at 7pm to Facebook and YouTube come hang out. We love to chat with you about Marvel. Apple, Spotify, Stitcher or the app of your choice to subscribe listen and follow the show. At marvelvisionpod on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook comicbookclublive.com for this podcast and many more. Until next time, stay marvelous

Justin Tyler
Turning to weather we’ve got some great clouds and sun coming into the Marvel Phase Five

Alexander Zalben
Ooh, clouds and sun.

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